[Evangelion]

Dave Hudson, on Jul 14 2004, 09:18 PM, said:

So what about Mithra and Zoroaster then?

I've been busy.

And you forgot Krishna.

[Evangelion]

Skeptic, on Jul 12 2004, 03:24 PM, said:

Krishna of India

The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah Krishna number in the hundreds, particularly when the early Christian texts now considered apocrypha are factored in. It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was “Christna,” which reveals its relation to “Christ.” Also, in Bengali, Krishna is reputedly “Christos,” which is the same as the Greek for “Christ” and which the soldiers of Alexander the Great called Krishna

This is a fallacy of equivocation and therefore irrelevant.

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It should be further noted that, as with Jesus, Buddha and Osiris, many people have believed and continue to believe in a historical Krishna.

This, too, is irrelevant.

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The following is a partial list of the correspondences between Jesus and Krishna:
--Krishna was born of  the Virgin Devaki (“Divine One”) on December 25.
--His earthly father was a carpenter, who was off in the city paying tax while Krishna was born.
--His birth was signaled by a star in the east and attended by angels and shepherds, at which time he was presented with spices.
--The heavenly hosts danced and sang at his birth.
--He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
--Krishna was anointed on the head with oil by a woman whom he healed.
--He is depicted as having his foot on the head of a serpent.
--He worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.

I have found nothing in any Krishna myth which supports these claims. I might also point out that it becomes rather tiring when I have to do all the work to refute an argument which contains no evidence for its own assertions.

Claims for the remaining mythological figures will be largely ignored if unaccompanied by any supporting evidence.

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--Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love, and he “lived poor and he loved the poor.”

That's true, but it's not enough to prove a link.

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--He castigated the clergy, charging them with “ambition and hypocrisy . . . Tradition says he fell victim to their vengeance.”

As above.

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--Krishna’s “beloved disciple” was Arjuina or Ar-jouan (Jouhn).

Fallacy of equivocation.

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--He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
--He gave his disciples the ability to work miracles.
--His path was “strewn with branches.”
--In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
--Krishna was killed around the age of 30, and the sun darkened at his death.
--He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven “in the sight of all men.”
--He was depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet, as well as having a heart emblem on his clothing.
--Krishna is the “lion of the tribe of Saki.”
--He was called the “Shepherd of God” and considered the “Redeemer,” “Firstborn,” “Sin-Bearer,” “Liberator,” “Universal Word.”
--He was deemed the “Son of God” and “our Lord and Savior,” who came to earth to die for man’s salvation.

I have found nothing in any Krishna myth which supports these claims.

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--He was the second person of the Trinity.

Incorrect. He was one of many different deities.

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--His disciples purportedly bestowed upon him the title “Jezeus,” or “Jeseus,” meaning “pure essence.”

I have found nothing in any Krishna myth which supports this claim.

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--Krishna is to return to judge the dead, riding on a white horse, and to do battle with the “Prince of Evil,” who will desolate the earth.

Since the followers of Krishna believe in reincarnation, it makes no sense whatsoever to claim that he will return "to judge the dead."

This is obviously a misrepresentation of the myth.

[Evangelion]

Cajowa, on Jul 14 2004, 08:51 AM, said:

Evangelion Posted on Jul 13 2004, 12:46 PM

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Don't use Hislop's book as an authoritative source for anything.

Click here to learn why. 

Well I have got some reading to do ... i had heard vague things about the credibitlity of hislop, now I can learn more!!!

thanks

My pleasure.

It's what I'm here for.

[Skeptic]

All I'll add my thanks to that, Evangelion.

[Evangelion]

Skeptic, on Jul 15 2004, 10:58 AM, said:

All I'll add my thanks to that, Evangelion.

Cheers.

More to come...

[Evangelion]

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Mithra of Persia

--Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
--He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
--He had 12 companions or disciples.
--Mithra’s followers were promised immortality.
--He performed miracles.
--As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
--He was buried in atomb and after three days rose again.
--His resurrection was celebrated every year.
--He was called “the Good Shepherd” and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
--He was considered the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” [Word] “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
--His sacred day was Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
--Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
--His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
--“His annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration.”

    Furthermore, the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced . . .
. . . Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier Pagan mystery religions.

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Zoroaster/Zarathustra

--Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.”
--He was baptized in a river.
--In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom.
--He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
--He began his ministry at age 30.
--Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.”
--He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.
--He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse.
--He had a sacred cup or grail.
--He was slain.
--His religion had a eucharist.
--He was the “Word made flesh.”
--Zoroaster’s followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 CE and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.

I refuse to address these unless I receive some half-decent documentation to support their respective claims.

It gets a bit frustrating when I have to do all the research for both sides of the debate.

[Tam_*]

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He castigated the clergy, charging them with “ambition and hypocrisy"

So did the author of Elpis Israel...

Connection?

[Rapunzel2]

I've always wondered where they got Jesus' birth on December 25 from I mean isn't december cold in Israel and the shepherds were out in the hills watching their sheep?

[Evangelion]

Tam, on Aug 18 2004, 04:16 AM, said:

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He castigated the clergy, charging them with “ambition and hypocrisy"

So did the author of Elpis Israel...

Connection?

It's uncanny!

[blue_*]

i got a book once of budhas sacred writings i forget the name of it, but it had accounts of budha stressing selfishness causes conflict pain in life, budha walked on water, told a story of widows mite... there were many gospel similarities, and a clear likeness with Messiah. the koran also has aped half the bible and rewritten it, with storys of Mary and Josephs travels, the role of Abraham ....

It makes a lot of sense to me to think of Chrisitinaity getting corrupted and reforged as these major world religions as it spread out geographically and encountered the idolatrous tribal regions...Everyone mimics a success in art or fashion, why wouldnt people do it with religion too, and immitate aspects of Christianity?...

[Fortigurn]

You want copying from Christ? You haven't seen what the rabbis did.

[Fortigurn]

Dave Hudson, on Aug 19 2004, 11:44 PM, said:

What did they do?

They scruffed Christ's parables, and pretended that they invented them.

[Fortigurn]

Dave Hudson, on Aug 19 2004, 11:55 PM, said:

Got any examples?

Stand by.

[Fortigurn]

Dave Hudson, on Aug 20 2004, 12:01 AM, said:

Here. :coffee:

[Evangelion]

blue, on Aug 19 2004, 01:33 PM, said:

i got a book once of budhas sacred writings i forget the name of it, but it had accounts of budha stressing selfishness causes conflict pain in life, budha walked on water, told a story of widows mite...

It wouldn't have been a book about Buddha's sacred writings, because Buddha didn't actually write anything.

Your source's stories also sound suspiciously contrived; while Buddha certainly talked about selfishness causing conflict and pain in life, he never walked on water or told a story about a widow's mite. :coffee:

[Huldah]

blue, on Aug 19 2004, 01:33 PM, said:

It makes a lot of sense to me to think of Chrisitinaity getting corrupted and reforged as these major world religions as it spread out geographically and encountered the idolatrous tribal regions...Everyone mimics a success in art or fashion, why wouldnt people do it with religion too, and immitate aspects of Christianity?...

Didn't Thomas take Christianity to India?

This post has been edited by Huldah: 19 August 2004 - 03:43 PM

[Evangelion]

Huldah, on Aug 19 2004, 10:41 PM, said:

blue, on Aug 19 2004, 01:33 PM, said:

It makes a lot of sense to me to think of Chrisitinaity getting corrupted and reforged as these major world religions as it spread out geographically and encountered the idolatrous tribal regions...Everyone mimics a success in art or fashion, why wouldnt people do it with religion too, and immitate aspects of Christianity?...

Didn't Thomas take Christianity to India?

[Huldah]

[Fortigurn]

Dave Hudson, on Aug 20 2004, 01:00 AM, said:

You said guess where they're from? But they've got cross references on them so its a bit obvious.

So where are they from? :coffee:

[Fortigurn]

Dave Hudson, on Aug 20 2004, 07:06 AM, said:

I was a bit confused to be honest. Were the quotes included by you or are they actually there in the originals?

Anything in parenthesis or square brackets was added. Everything else was in the text.

So who wrote those parables? Where did they come from?