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Does God Will That All Mankind Will Be Saved?


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#1 InChristAlways

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 01:52 PM

I saw an interesting article at this site someone pointed me too [he appears to have no great love for the "carnal church" system of today] LOL. I may have to look at this site a little more.
http://www.godfire.net/eby/

GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED!
God Will Have All Men Be Saved!
I Will Draw All Men Unto Me
God's Oath - To Save All!
The Justification Of All Mankind
Mercy Upon All
Why Teach Salvation For All?
On this earth there are more than four and a half billion people! The most populous lands are China, India, and other parts of Asia, and in spite of missionaries from the West, actually more than half of all people on the earth have never so much as heard the ONLY NAME BY WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED - the name of JESUS CHRIST! For your Bible says....... "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). [/b]This means that billions of people here on this earth have lived, and died, without having known anything about God's provision of salvation - without saving knowledge - neither having heard the only name by which men may be saved! Now think what that means. If all unsaved are eternally lost, then more than HALF the people who have ever lived on this earth have been consigned to eternal hell without ever having been given so much as a chance to escape it!...It is estimated that about one hundred and sixty billions of human beings have lived on the earth in the six thousand years since Adam's creation. Of these, the very broadest estimate that could be made with reason would be that less than three billion were truly saints of God. This broad estimate would leave the immense aggregate of one hundred and fifty seven billions (157,000,000,000) who went to their graves without faith and hope in the only name given under heaven or among men whereby we must be saved.

Paul, in I Tim. 2:1-6, gives the answer! "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN ... for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE  A-L-L  M-E-N  TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." This text is one of rare beauty. It is indeed like a precious diamond, the effulgence of whose radiance dazzles the mind. It is a drop of pure distilled essence, whose fragrance fills the rooms of the heart. It is a joy forevermore and a challenge to everyone who reads it with an understanding heart. It should be engraved upon the heart of every saint of God. There is so much depth to that text that I am afraid that we often do not even perceive it. It is like a beautiful sky of deep rich blue and one cannot even begin to grasp the vast depth above us. So it is with this passage!

Comprehensive Grace? Discussion.
http://newjerusalemm...hread.php?t=225
“…God is love.” I John 4:8

One problem that those who believe in a never ending hell have is how to reconcile non-redemptive suffering with the fact that God is love. Many believe the two ideas simply are incompatible. How could God destroy eternally those whom He loves? I believe the ideas that CG presents solves this dilemma. CG says that God can destroy eternally those whom He loves yet save them at the same time.

Throughout the old testament and the new we see the day of the Lord as a time of great wrath yet also a day of great deliverance. The traditional view is that this day contained only wrath for the unbelieving and no mercy, and of course the believing obtained fullness of mercy and grace. Yet, is it possible that the unbelieving received judgment and mercy? This seems to be what passages such a Romans chapter eleven seem to be saying.

How could this be so? If we see how the following could be, then perhaps we can understand how the unbelieving received both judgment and deliverance at the Parousia.

And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself? “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.” (Luke 9:23-27)

Of course we know that the word “life” in this passage can be translated “soul”

“but whoever loses his soul for My sake, he is the one who will save it.” How can losing one’s soul result in its salvation? How can saving your own soul result in its loss? (It seems that this life or soul is lost one way or another) Exactly what did Jesus mean that they would have to lose their soul to follow Him, and how is this possible to do and still live?

“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (Gal 2:20)

How is it possible for Paul to have died yet still live? We know that the old Paul (or Saul) died with Christ at the cross, and the new Paul lives through the resurrection. Yet, what does this mean? What was lost at the cross that was so great, that Paul said he was no longer living? How could it be possible to die yet live?

When we begin to see the answers to these questions, we begin to see how the unbelieving perished at His coming, yet were saved. If it is possible to lose one’s soul and yet live, and if it is possible to die yet live, it is possible to perish at His coming yet live.

John says that God is love. Yet, the Bible says that there are those whom God hated. How can He love and hate at the same time?

it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.” Rom 9:12-13

Of course we know that Jacob was a type of the New (younger) Covenant and Esau was a type of the Old Covenant. It was that Old Covenant man that God hated. It was the old creation that was fleshly—of the potential of man—that God hated. It was that old covenant man who righteousness was self-righteousness and who was sold into bondage to sin and who was under the reign of death and Satan that God despised.

Such was Esau. Such was Paul at one time. This was their identity. This who they were through and through. Yet, the very thing they were had to be lost if they were to enter God’s presence. Yet, who would help these wretched men whom God hated? The very One who loved them.

For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 2 Cor 5:14

That old covenant man perished at the cross. What we see from Pentecost to the Parousia was the working out and revealing of all that Jesus accomplished through His death and resurrection—the death of the old creation and the birth of the new.

So, what remained for those who refused to take part in the covenant transformation that was taking place in that first generation? They experienced the perishing of the old creation at his coming as all that Jesus accomplished at the cross was revealed.

So, did they die and suffer the loss of all things? Yes, they did. They lost their souls. Yet, the God who loved them saved them, and thus “All Israel was saved.”

That is where I am at now on this issue. I still have many questions, yet this view seems to make more sense than never ending conscious suffering which is entirely inconsistent with the nature of God.

First, a couple comments about what "Comprehensive Grace" is, in my estimation. Others who claim to hold to this view may not agree with me entirely. I am not trying to inspire a movement, nor change anyone's theology, necessarily. What I am trying to do is to better understand what the scriptures actually teach.

Comprehensive Grace is the belief that, through Christ, all the world is saved. Not everyone in the CG belief system agrees what this means. Some believe that this is a form of "universalism", albeit biblical and not philosophical. Some believe that the "wicked" will receive some form of punishment, whether it is retributive or annihilating (two different groups). So, as you can see, there are some who are Conditional Mortality adherents who might consider themselves "Comprehensive Grace" adherents as well.

CG believes that when Jesus came, he came to "fulfill" the Law, that is to fulfill its salvific functions, since the sacrifices of the Old could not do it, it took Christ's atonement to accomplish (fulfill) it. Since it was through the Law that sin became realized and men "died" (Paul stated that when the commandment came, he "died"), the doing away of the legal requirements of the Law meant that "death" was defeated. This was accomplished, as all preterists believe, at the destruction of Jerusalem, and with it the Old Covenant.

As an aside, it is not clear to all that when Jesus taught the Sermon on the Mount, he was intending to show that the Pharisees, while claiming the opposite, were not able to "keep the Law" anymore than the "sinners" to whom Christ came. The pharisees thought that they were keeping the Law by not committing adultery (if they in fact were doing that), but Christ showed that their lust for other men's wives were adultery as well. NO ONE kept the Law, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Eternal life is further defined for us in the Gospel of John as "to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." This is a far cry from the way most define eternal life today.

Yes, the NT speaks of those not believing in Christ as perishing, or being sent into "eternal punishment", or being "destroyed". And yet, as preterists, we should see that this specifically refers to "the lost", whom Jesus said was "the lost house of Israel". Those "not found in the book of Life" should be understood as being those Israelites who did not keep the covenant (as is clearly portrayed in the other OT scriptures which mention the "book of the living").

However, as Max King has rightly pointed out, the destruction of the old heavens and earth, i.e. the Old covenant was the fulfillment of the promises made to "the fathers". CG adherents teach that this means that, through this "Lake of Fire" of judgment, these apostate Jews were reconciled to the Father. Hence, mankind was now reconciled to the Father.

God tells us to love our enemies, because in doing so we show that we are His children. What is interesting here is that this implies that God loves His enemies as well. How can He call us to imitate Him, and then tell us to love our enemies, if He Himself did not love His.

We know in John 3 that the bible teaches that Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it. AND, the scriptures even teach that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world, ESPECIALLY the household of faith.

Additionally, as Paul points out, in Adam "ALL die". In Christ, ALL are made alive (reconciled to God?). Having been a good Calvinist, I know the arguments here. I have not only heard them, I have used them, time and time again. However, one thing that I never considered before is that when ALL died in Adam, they had no choice in the matter. God did not send out evangelists who said, "look, Adam was your representative, and he sinned. If you accept him as your representative, you will be separated from God as well. Would you pray this SINNER prayer with me?" No, God imputed Adam's death to all men.

In the same way, is it not possible that Jesus died for ALL men, even though they did not make that choice? What else could this clear implication mean? All means all, doesn't it? And if it means "all kinds", then should we conclude that Adam's death only affected "all kinds" of men, and not "ALL" men?

One last point: everyone who is a Christian believes in some kind of afterlife consciousness. Even our friend Jack Chick teaches that the wicked will be fully conscious at the Great White Throne Judgment. Chick describes the wicked as realizing their error, and pleading to God for mercy, but our holy, wrathful God says, "too late, you go to Hell."

I would ask though, couldn't we just as easily imagine a loving and merciful God, who when He looks upon those for whom Christ died, even though they remained rebellious or ignorant up until their physical death, He would have compassion on them THROUGH CHRIST?

I am not talking about universalism as understood that "all roads lead to heaven." What I am saying is that THROUGH CHRIST all men will ultimately be faced with that truth, and that, in spite of their rejecting it during physical life here on earth, God reconciles them to Himself? If my calling coderguy a fool qualifies as a murderer as evil as Hitler, then does my "sinner's prayer" qualify me for heaven, while Hitler burns eternally? Is God's grace truly dependent upon our "accepting Jesus", or is it efficacious apart from our decision. The Calvinist would agree that God's grace is efficacious apart from our decision. Our decision simply "confirms" that we are elect. What I am saying is that God grace is efficacious for ALL MEN, as the scriptures indeed teach.

Are those who "accept Christ" any better off than those who do not? I think so, although some CGers would disagree. I believe that we who know God and His Son will receive special consideration in the afterlife. However, I believe that all things will be reconciled, and restored. Those who did me wrong will ask forgiveness. Why? Because when they see the Awesomeness of our Holy, Merciful God, they will be able to do nothing less. Those whom I have wronged will receive the same request for forgiveness, but this time from ME and for the same reason.

God is so awesom. God is so loving. God is so kind. Let us enjoy His kindness and mercy. Let us enjoy His grace. Let us help others to do the same.

Edited by InChristAlways, 25 October 2005 - 03:01 PM.


#2 Fortigurn

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 09:39 PM

You will find a debate on Universalism on this forum here.

You'll find a second debate on Universalism on this forum here.

You'll find a discussion of Universalism on this forum here.

You'll find a critique of an article promoting Universalism here.

#3 Anastasis

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 02:21 AM

InChristAlways,

Good thoughts. Universal salvation is clearly taught in the Bible. But there are verses which have been misunderstood by tradition. The average readers needs to have the misunderstandings cleared up and then it's understood that gospel means 'good news'. Tradition taught men to use the foreign word gospel which can mean anything to the one who does not know what it really means.

#4 Natajack

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 07:46 AM

InChristAlways,

Good thoughts. Universal salvation is clearly taught in the Bible. But there are verses which have been misunderstood by tradition. The average readers needs to have the misunderstandings cleared up and then it's understood that gospel means 'good news'. Tradition taught men to use the foreign word gospel which can mean anything to the one who does not know what it really means.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


What does it really mean Anastasis?

And what do you understand by the term universal salvation?

'Coz I could agree with your post, if taken at face value, but I'd like to know what you're talking about first!

#5 Simpleton

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 08:38 AM

It sounds like the philosophy of men. I am not a preterest. I can't see universal salvation in the Bible.

I guess I am a Calvinest; just not hyper.

God is sovereign. He is a God of love. He is perfect in all attributes. He must therefore be just and perfect in His justice.

Who will save us from the God who is just? God will save whom He will.

#6 Natajack

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 10:37 AM

It sounds like the philosophy of men.  I am not a preterest.  I can't see universal salvation in the Bible.

You're right, Simp. What the Bible teaches is that salvation is open to all mankind, but that it requires belief and baptism. The book of Daniel says that some will be saved, and some won't. What we have from Scripture is the understanding that there are basically three groups: 1. those who are raised and granted a place in the Kingdom, 2. those who are raised, but found unworthy and condemned, and 3. those who are not raised.

God is sovereign.  He is a God of love.  He is perfect in all attributes.  He must therefore be just and perfect in His justice.

Who will save us from the God who is just?  God will save whom He will.

Exactly right sir.

#7 InChristAlways

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 03:22 PM

InChristAlways,

Good thoughts. Universal salvation is clearly taught in the Bible. But there are verses which have been misunderstood by tradition. The average readers needs to have the misunderstandings cleared up and then it's understood that gospel means 'good news'. Tradition taught men to use the foreign word gospel which can mean anything to the one who does not know what it really means.

It sounds like the philosophy of men.    I am not a preterest.  :confused:  I can't see universal salvation in the Bible.

I guess I am a Calvinest; just not hyper.
God is sovereign.  He is a God of love.  He is perfect in all attributes.  He must therefore be just and perfect in His justice.
Who will save us from the God who is just?  God will save whom He will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi simple. I don't have a "label" except "Christian". What does preterism, futurism, historicism, dispensationalism, calvinism, arminiaism or any other "isms"etc. have to do with those in Christ? Can you actually tell whether Christ will say to you "depart, I never knew you" just because you carry the label of "christian".

I don't look at someone and "wonder" whether God has saved them or not, but if they live a righteous peacefull life, I have to think they will somehow be rewarded, but I really do not know that answer as I am judged alone on my good "works" and those are talked about by God, Jesus, and the Apostles in the Bible.

reve 20:13  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

For example, note the ones being addressed in Acts about salvation in the NAME of Jesus Christ. The Name could also signify "NATURE"["cain/abel for instance], such as the righeousness of Abel, Noah, Abraham etc. as Jesus was born with the invisible Nature/Image that is of God.

Genesis 7:1 Then the LORD said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen [that] you [are] righteous before Me in this generation.

Israel was considered the "Fistfruits" people of God in the OT, but after the Cross, that wall of division was broken down, first for the jew then the gentile.

What about atheists, budahists, muslims etc who die more "righteous" than some "Christ believing christians",, do you believe they are forever damned because they never had heard of the One "Name" that brings Salvation and Eternal life?

Acts 2:22  " Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know -- 

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:    9  "If we this day are judged for a good deed [done] to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well,    10 "let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified,


Edited by InChristAlways, 25 October 2005 - 03:44 PM.


#8 Simpleton

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 03:52 PM

ICA

Does man play any part at all in his salvation?

I trust in Jesus Christ and what he did for me for my present life and for my future judgment. Jesus and him alone.

#9 InChristAlways

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 04:17 PM

ICA

Does man play any part at all in his salvation?

I trust in Jesus Christ and what he did for me for my present life and for my future judgment.  Jesus and him alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi asimple. It is stated every knee will bow to the Name and to the Father through the eons of eons.

Those who do come to the only Name under heaven which can save know through the Scritpures that we have inherited eternal life In Him.

If God wanted a perfect creation, He could easily raise up "stones" to follow His will without a "concience":

Matthew 3:9 "and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as [our] father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Romans 2:15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience[#4893] also bearing witness, and between themselves [their] thoughts accusing or else excusing [them)]

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html
conscience  occurs 31 times in 29 verses:
4893 suneidesis soon-i'-day-sis from a prolonged form of 4894; co-perception, i.e. moral consciousness:--conscience

The book of revelation is full of choice nuggets of Knowledge:

Phil 1:5  Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,    6  who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,    7  but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men.    8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to [the point of] death, even the death of the cross.    9  Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,    10  that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,    11  and [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

reve 5: And I heard the voice of everything created in Heaven, upon earth, under the earth and such as are upon the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying. Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb unto the ages of ages".


Edited by InChristAlways, 25 October 2005 - 04:25 PM.


#10 Adanac

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 04:42 PM

ICA

Does man play any part at all in his salvation?

I trust in Jesus Christ and what he did for me for my present life and for my future judgment.  Jesus and him alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And yet Jesus trusted in his father.

#11 Fortigurn

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 05:15 PM

You will find a debate on Universalism on this forum here.

You'll find a second debate on Universalism on this forum here.

You'll find a discussion of Universalism on this forum here.

You'll find a critique of an article promoting Universalism here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


ICA, please read these posts.

#12 InChristAlways

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 05:49 PM

9  Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,    10  that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,    11  and [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

reve 5: And I heard the voice of everything created in Heaven, upon earth, under the earth and such as are upon the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying. Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb unto the ages of ages".


You will find a debate on Universalism on this forum here.

You'll find a second debate on Universalism on this forum here.

You'll find a discussion of Universalism on this forum here.

You'll find a critique of an article promoting Universalism here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


ICA, please read these posts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok.

Btw. I have not gotten any views on the "court" in revelation 11, as I am currently working on that "word" in revelation and anxious to see how others view it. [my main study is actually "harmonizing" revelation to the Bible]Thanks.

http://www.btdf.org/...?showtopic=6418

Reve 11:2  "But leave out the court[#833] which is outside the temple cast out without, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles/Nations. And they will tread the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.
[reve 13]

Reve 20:9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Reve 19:17  Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,


Edited by InChristAlways, 25 October 2005 - 05:58 PM.


#13 Anastasis

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:54 AM

InChristAlways,

Good thoughts. Universal salvation is clearly taught in the Bible. But there are verses which have been misunderstood by tradition. The average readers needs to have the misunderstandings cleared up and then it's understood that gospel means 'good news'. Tradition taught men to use the foreign word gospel which can mean anything to the one who does not know what it really means.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


What does it really mean Anastasis?

And what do you understand by the term universal salvation?

'Coz I could agree with your post, if taken at face value, but I'd like to know what you're talking about first!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Gospel means good news. It's entirely good news. Condemnation is not the news, it's the present physical reality. The good news is that Christ paid a ransom for all men and that Christ who 'speak of those things are not as though they are' reconciled all things Col 1v20 - therefore past tense. 2 Cor 5v19 says God was in Christ reconciling the world. When Jesus was born as a man the angel said it would be a great joy to all the people. So also to Judas and the pharisees. In Phil 2v9-11 Paul is portraying how it will all end. 1 Cor 15v22-28 says all men will be made alive in Christ and the first to be made alive in Christ was Christ. Long after 'the millenium' the Son/the mediator will step down from the throne and subject himself along with death and any other rulers and God will be all in all.

#14 Anastasis

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 02:57 AM

Good thoughts from canon Farrar;

Since aion meant 'age,' aionios means, properly, 'belonging to an age,' or 'age-long,' and anyone who asserts that it must mean 'endless' defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago. Even if aion always meant 'eternity,' which is not the case in classic or Hellenistic Greek-aionios could still mean only 'belonging to eternity' and not 'lasting through it.'"

“Mercy and Judgment” page 378)



“Of all the arguments on this question, the one which appears to me the most absolutely and hopelessly futile, is the one in which so many seem to rest with entire content; viz. that "eternal or aeonian life" must mean endless life, and therefore that "aeonian chastisement" must mean "endless chastisement." This battered and aged argument, . . . if it had possessed a particle of cogency, would not have been set aside as entirely valueless by such minds as those of Origen and the two Gregories in ancient days, nor by multitudes in the days of St. Augustine and St. Jerome, nor by the most brilliant thinker among the schoolmen, nor by many of our greatest living divines. . . . No proposition is capable of more simple proof than that aeonian is not a synonym of endless. It only means, or can mean, in its primary sense, pertaining to an aeon, and therefore "indefinite," since an aeon may be either long or short; and in its secondary sense "spiritual," "pertaining to the unseen world," "an attribute of that which is above and beyond time," an attribute expressive not of duration but of quality. Can such an explanation of the word be denied by any competent or thoughtful reader of John 5:39; 6:54; 17:3; 1 John 5:13,20? Would not the introduction of the word "endless" into those Divine utterances be an unspeakable degradation of their meaning? And as for the argument that the redeemed would thus lose their promised bliss, it is at once so unscriptural and so selfish that, after what Mr. Cox and others have said of it, one may hope that no one will ever be able to use it again without a blush. I cannot here diverge into a discussion with Bishop Wordsworth and Canon Ryle, whose sermons need some adversaria rather longer than I can here devote to them; but as they both dwell on the fact that people who spoke Greek interpreted aionios to mean endless, I reply that some of the greatest masters of Greek, both in classical times and among the Fathers, saw quite clearly that, though the word might connote endlessness by being attributively added to endless things, it had in itself no such meaning. I cannot conceive how any candid mind can deny the force of these considerations. If even Origenists would freely speak of future punishment as aionios but never as ateleutetos [without end] –– if, as even these papers have shown, Plato uses the word as the antithesis of endlessness –– if St. Gregory of Nyssa uses it as the epithet of "an interval"–– if, as though to leave this Augustinian argument without the faintest shadow of a foundation, there are absolutely two passages of Scripture (Hab.3:6 and Rom.16:25,26) where the very word occurs in two consecutive clauses, and is, in the second of the two clauses, applied to God, and yet is, in the first of the two clauses, applied to things which are temporary or terminated –– what shall be said of disputants who still enlist the controversial services of a phantom which has been so often laid in the tomb from which it ought never again to emerge? How is it that not one out of the scores of writers who have animadverted on my book have so much as noticed the very remarkable fact to which I have called attention, that those who followed Origen in holding out a possible hope beyond the grave founded their argument for the terminability of torments on the acknowledged sense of this very word, and on the fact that other words and phrases which do unmistakably mean endless are used of the duration of good, but are never used of the duration of evil?” (“The Wider Hope” pages 327-330)


These thoughts are relevant also to the all important doctrine of the end of Sonship / the Doctor.

#15 Anastasis

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:01 AM

It sounds like the philosophy of men.  I am not a preterest.  I can't see universal salvation in the Bible.

You're right, Simp. What the Bible teaches is that salvation is open to all mankind, but that it requires belief and baptism. The book of Daniel says that some will be saved, and some won't. What we have from Scripture is the understanding that there are basically three groups: 1. those who are raised and granted a place in the Kingdom, 2. those who are raised, but found unworthy and condemned, and 3. those who are not raised.

God is sovereign.  He is a God of love.  He is perfect in all attributes.  He must therefore be just and perfect in His justice.

Who will save us from the God who is just?  God will save whom He will.

Exactly right sir.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


The problem in this reasoning is that you want the end to come too soon. There are two ends. One end with start the Millenium/the new heavens and earth and another which brings the end of death entirely and the "God all in all" situation.

#16 Simpleton

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 10:40 AM

Then you see the lake of fire as being annihilation, a cessation, a complete end.

#17 InChristAlways

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 11:07 AM

The problem in this reasoning is that you want the end to come too soon. There are two ends. One end with start the Millenium/the new heavens and earth and another which brings the end of death entirely and the "God all in all" situation.

The Bible only shows one END/Judgement.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge [you] therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing[#2015] and His kingdom: 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing[#2015].

Reve 19:11  Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.    12  His eyes [were] like a flame of fire,

Fire is a "purifier/refiner" and in fact that is what "brimstone" meanas, a divine fire.

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah [is] written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

Mala 3: 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He [is] like a refiner's fire And like launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness.

Luke 16:24
"Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented[#928] in this flame.'

Revelation 14:10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented[#928] with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

LUKE 16:23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." (NKJV)

What did Christ mean by saying here that the rich man was in "torments in Hades"? The key to discovering the symbolic meaning of this verse is the Greek noun basanois, translated "torments" above.

According to Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, basanois, which is a form of the noun basanos, means "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it . . ."

The etymology of basanos found in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is very helpful in correctly understanding this verse:

In non-biblical Gk. [basanos] is a commercial expression, or is used in relation to government. It then acquires the meaning of the checking of calculations, which develops naturally out of the basic sense of [basanos, basanizein] . . . In the spiritual sphere it has the figur[ative] sense, which is closely related to the original concrete meaning, of a means of testing . . .

The word then undergoes a change in meaning. The original sense fades into the background. [Basanos] now comes to denote "torture" or "the rack," espec[ially] used with slaves . . . [Basanos] occurs in the sense of "torment" . . .

The change in meaning is best explained if we begin with the object of treatment. If we put men instead of metal or a coin, the stone of testing become[s] torture or the rack. The metal which has survived the testing stone is subjected to harsher treatment. Man is in the same position when severely tested by torture. In the testing of metal an essential role was played by the thought of testing and proving genuineness. The rack is a means of showing the true state of affairs. In its proper sense it is a means of testing and proving, though also of punishment. Finally, even this special meaning was weakened and only the general element of torture remained (vol. I, pp. 561, 562, emphasis mine).

In this verse, basanois simply conveys a sense of testing and proving through punishment. When this understanding is combined with a proper discernment of the symbolism of Hades, we can begin to see the point Yeshua is making. As a whole, the house of Judah would to be cut off[not the House of Israel/gentiles] and replaced during this current age by those Gentiles who in faith would accept the sacrifice of the Messiah.

Edited by InChristAlways, 28 October 2005 - 12:27 PM.


#18 Simpleton

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Posted 28 October 2005 - 12:00 PM

But testing and punishment are 2 separate things, right?

#19 Anastasis

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 11:08 AM

InChristAlways,

No. That's part of your modern full preterist heritage I suppose. Read 1 Cor 15v22-28. First end in verse 23, second in verse 28. Also check on what Russell says on the Millenium. The passage in Rev 20 does not say the Millenium end. When John speaks of the end of the thousand years, he does read at face value speak future from the point of the vision.

As a side effect, you will find UR even easier to reconcile with all Scripture than with the "all things end in AD 70 viewpoint.

Edited by Anastasis, 29 October 2005 - 11:10 AM.


#20 InChristAlways

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 01:03 PM

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah [is] written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

Mala 3: 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He [is] like a refiner's fire And like launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness.

Luke 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented[#928] in this flame.'

Revelation 14:10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented[#928] with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

But testing and punishment are 2 separate things, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Simple. The punishment was their House and Kingdom was taken from them [Judah], and given back to the divorced children of Israel. Depends on how you view the OT scriptures I suppose. That is one reason why the OC jewish religion of today "wail" at the wailing wall to this day I believe while those in the NC religion of Christ are shouting "Alleluia! in reve 19 I think.

http://newjerusalemm...s.com/index.php?

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from YOU[House of Judah/Sceptre of Israel] and given to a NATION bearing the fruits of it.

Matt 23:37 " O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing! 38 "See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed [is] He who comes in the name of the LORD!' "

Revelation 19:1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power [belong] to the Lord our God! 2 "For true and righteous [are] His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants [shed] by her." 3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!"

Edited by InChristAlways, 29 October 2005 - 01:11 PM.





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